Nature's Logic Dog Food

welcome and it is wonderful to see such a terrific turnout here. a huge thank youto the nour foundation and the newyork academy of sciences for making this event possible. i have to say it is a great pleasure to behere because we have a terrific panel and we have some fascinating ideas todig into, and i know this because i have been neck deep in questions aboutconsciousness for the last four to five months. as richard mentioned, i'm in the process ofputting the finishing touches on a

a big six hour radio series on thescience of consciousness... which will be coming to a public radiostation near you in the coming months. now i'm not a scientist or a philosopher...i'm a public radio guy... but for whatever reason, i can't stopthinking about this subject which i have to say is rather odd, so at night i look over at my wife ann, who is readingsome great novel, and here i am plowing through somephilosophical tome about the mind-brain problem and i can't really explain itbut it is strangely addictive, for me at least, to read books about the nature ofconsciousness.

let me give you two recent examples: the neuroscientist christof koch whodid groundbreaking work with francis crick recently came out with avery interesting book called "consciousness: confessions of a romanticreductionist" so i interviewed him, and mentioned that some scholars, including thedistinguished philosopher on our panel david chalmers, have suggested that science will neverunderstand certain dimensions of consciousness

koch replied, and i quote, "if you look at the historical record ofphilosophers it's pretty disastrous. science has a spectacular record ofunderstanding the universe." and he went on to say: "i'm profoundly skeptical when philosopherstell us once again what we'll never know." ...end of quote. something to talk about this evening i think. now to take another example, the philosopher thomas nagel has a new book called "mind and cosmos"

hot off the press... also quite interesting nagels... the guy who wrote the famousessay "what is it like to be a bat". the answer, by the way, is: we will never know. nagels' new book is a critique of thestandard materialist model of science, and specifically how many neuroscientist tryto explain consciousness through neural correlates... he ends the book by saying, and i quote, "i would be willing to bet that thepresent right thinking consensus will come to seem laughable in a generationor two."

so here we have fundamental questionsabout science and philosophy not to mention a certain degree oftestiness when it comes to trying to explain the nature of consciousness. of course there are all sorts of other bigquestions as well, for instance: what kind of consciousness do animalshave? will computers become conscious someday? and what about the people who've falleninto comas after suffering severe brain trauma? where does consciousness begin and endwith them?

this is fascinating stuff... we'll be talking about all of this andmore on our panel "the thinking ape: theenigma of human consciousness". so let me introduce our very distinguished panelof speakers on the far end over there, david chalmersis a philosopher of mind and consciousness at new york university and director of the center forconsciousness at australian national university his many books include the consciousmind in search of a fundamental theory removing down uh... the row here

lori santos is a professor of psychologyat yale university investigating the evolution of the mind theory of mind andthe development of cognition in humans and nonhuman primates daniel comment is eight nobel laureateand professor emeritus of psychology at princeton university who pioneeredbehavioral economic theory he's the author of thinking fast andslow and nicholas jeff is a physician andscientist at weill cornell medical college where he focuses on thepathophysiology of impaired consciousness arousal regulation andeffects of deep brain stimulation

techniques on minimally conscious patients it is great to have altogether i noticed a quick word about what we'regonna do this evening we will talk for roughly an hour or so and then we'regonna open it up to you four questions and uh... we'll be off and running it

dave thomas let me start with you sincei mentioned you earlier some people say understanding consciousness is the biggest myth mystery left andscience policy that is pretty well the biggestchallenge for scientific worldview and i thought about ten the sciences andmathematics and physics and the book levels in this in these areas somehow

work in the middle of these areas kind of a sense of a kind of uh...debasement of the world views tration where a mckinney up some uh... some puzzle like white aroundthe edges from we've got a sense of the relevant picture of the uh...universe of what the domain looks like it was just beautiful scientific picture we have a great chainof explanation explains chemistry chemistry explains

biology and biology at least explainsaspects of it psychology aspects of sociology and so on under the whole lot that we haven'tworked out the police car somehow sense of the end of the pictureallah fit together what's interesting aboutconsciousness is it just doesn't seem to fit easily into that picture

as this is a picture of the world interms of object of mechanism describe from the objective point of view unconsciousness as the quintessentiallysubjective phenomenon is how things feel from the inside is how we experience theworld from subjective point-of-view embossing in this objective

picture of the world seems on the face of a chilly weather isgoing to be subjectivity sweatsuit with by the way inever said the thing that you said i said it it's notified scott explain consciousness but if the u_s_ intendedthat there is some kind of a certain kinds of standard scientific explanationholy for example in terms of brain mechanisms i think that fail

festival both more farley is a challenge decides that maybe the time at thedecisive theories of science have to be expanded to bring a bring consciousness and foryears of organizer conference call toward the science ofconsciousness went i'm pro science everybody healthful diet might have understands your data recites uh... willwill come back to that how far sites google and go let me just for this opened to the restof you are

is consciousness one of the big question souter is thatone of the big mysteries or have we have we overblown this is it that not as biga challenges were saying that maker shipley not and i i i wouldtotally agree and i would say that this time the size of consciousness is extremelychallenging and in the context of trying to make operational valuations of patients whenthe question is are they conscious or not his is something where we don't havea standard model i don't think there's a

dogma there would be laughable so we dohave measurements and we have operationalapproaches to it and we certainly know when somebody's conscious the way weknow karthik adlai when somebody's conscious but when you have somebody whois in a coma and starts to recover but they inconsistently respond it maybe very difficult to know when when they're not responding are the consciouseither not conscious that they never respond could they become conscious arethey conscious now we just don't know has it and we're getting better thatmeasurement tools

approximate answers the probabilities ofwell which you worry about this more and actually i would say that as i'velooked at this in my college it looked this more carefully with bettermeasurements over the last ten years this is more challenging and harder and ira realize how many mistakeshigh-paid textile make them and today so i would like a find it verychild very humble and kind of problem of didn't read it attached soft

laura so just let me turn to you knowyour specialty is more animal cognition uh... panic is this is this a big question foryou what is consciousness and i think i agree with weapons and said so far idon't even think as modern era scientists and hadn't side as we knowhow to get at the question subjective experience when you're havingit what it looks like that i had a measure it that said

no cognitive science has made tremendous inroads into other thingsthat we thought we were going to be able to measure answer grabbing his panel back in the nineteen fifties and givento be here sitting up here we tell you we can measure data and has deeply wellbut we look at the black box in my mind is just gonna remain a black and fascinating we've come up with allkinds of cool techniques to probe what's going on in the black box bothbehavioral ones inner scientific ones and so n_f_l_ uh... i didn't think youwould be that the optimist appeared

image of god is is that cynthia and i have to add glass halffull approach that i think we definitely don't even know where the search yet butthat doesn't mean fifty years from now we'll all be in the streets and alleysthis fantastic to we know him danny comment how how big a help bigquestion is this insights consciousness it's very odd and and i'm in the minority because for somereason i'm one of those people who knew cup myself completely fascinated by this

fees and and in part i think because i remember couldimagine with an answer to that question would be so i'd find it difficult to conceivablequestion without having some idea of the structure of with an acceptableanswer would be that if there is one i don't know about it what's

i do c and you know that's the approach thatyou talked about in fact weekend identified consciousness we can agree on it it's not it is subjective but we can evaluate the consciousness

of other people and and above the rebels and we'regetting better at it and we're getting more consistent that building from the bottom up i think we can get an understanding you know the better understanding or atleast better description of the conditions for coffers to sort of bridge the gap between thematerial in this objective i don't know

how that gap could be great i don't know what the meaning of thequestion is will any of that is the objective that we hopped i don't see how we can succeed is is neuroscience that the the most important disciplineand trying to understand consciousness paul angry at nagpur so i i i i i desire to find a sub set commitment or science is a very broadtopic

move most the people i know or work closely with former scientists some of the earth is uh... some other orengineers some of them are cross train and lots of other things so if if he it a simple answer is yes ifthey uh... size of the brain if we believe that consciousness is a brainprocess which i you know see patterns of brain process be center around our science but thereare signs per se is a a barge kind of set of active so let'scome back to this question of subjective

experience and interests yesneuroscience can map lots of things that are happening in thebrain and you know such and you know these these parts of the brain have to firefor this particular of mental state to happened but is that really getting after whatsubjective experiences about maybe the question is why is neuroscience the most important thing but is thereare signs all you need

split plan optusnet for all the reasonsthat neuroscience alone isn't going to tellyou why there is some activity uh... because of this potentially on bridgeable gaps of mypeers always been a correct out of the data from your side to be a huge pup of the story both together but we mightthink of a subjective data about consciousness measured by the forthe first person point of view or from the

synthetic third-person point of viewweaponry talk to people and ask them what they're conscious thought and building into a kind of multilevel picture the take seriously the nearesthospital should take seriously the deliverance is off the deck of experience i want to say a word salute for my discipline it's not onlyin your slot machine there is

really experimental psychology i thinkthat a lot to say about the cause and in fact some of the more interestingdata coming from there because they're raising the question ifwe accept the sort of he obvious definition of what consciousnessbusiness there is an enormous amount of mentalactivity that goes on outside contras and and i think they're all discovery is being madetheir that's for some people if my field raises the question of innovate theydon't know what consequences for because lake never confine anything that cannotbe done without fifty and and i think

that this is actually happening so wehave the feeling that consciousness is a very important for sort of deeper mental activity for moreboldly mental ability food following that does seem to be of or fallextremely sophisticated stuff that can be produced without that semestermeasurements very difficult setbacks i want to come back to this questionabout subjective experience and and yes we can ask people what they'rethinking what they're feeling we cared uh... you know hook them up toand from a ride

and uh... aspin some of these questionsand monitor what's going on the brink is but still to try to understand the the essence of what they're feelingis that good science really go there and the other then asking what the person isis thinking about i mean is that science listing betweengathering data about what they are conscious often explain the day again dot american gathered icould find out what your conscious off by asking let me just read this toughrace philosophical questions archivist

role your conscious maybe europe completezombie and so on and you know that time i can it seems reasonable that for some people based take we'resaying is a gut cure conscious and thereby i can find out about other people's consciousness it's nothing to explain it

what we're doing right now actually fromthere has been a very big neuroscience unconsciously developingespecially on the left twenty years of animating places right now it is the science ofcorrelation correlates of neural processes ofcertain kinds of of consciousness people draw the diagram of the visual system it looks like okay thesebits connect more closely to the kinds ofconscious states them people report

and so on then the than other bits tomissiles are at the correlation what would not lacking is explanation why is it thatall these processes in the in the brain sugar growers and we have no idea what it would looklook like improvement can we ever kept that can we ever get and explanation for y subjective experiences

forgets the answer is yes but that doesn't mean that that if there'sany closer to it went to raise it difficult to youbecause one thing that troubles me is that something is going to be happening fromrobotics so we're going to have robots with with facial expressions expressingemotions and we're going to be responding mohalito go and then they're going to talk and theyare forces are going to express emotionthey're going to make sense

they were not conscious to us uh... will have no doubts that this issomething that is going to happen before we understand consciousness wewill have robots that will appear contrast what's will appear they are and i don't know if they areaffected i mean how do you know and it's her any better criterium them it's a document that we make about theother plans you know i know my own subjectivity letme know contras but but my belief about

your consciousness i think could reallybe simulate by my belief in the robots consciousness advance you know without those book you know other i have no idea to let meask you a maybe david a question confusing that robot that robot coulduse that language and what we what what i would have arobotic aneta adequately use natural language and i i think that's the heartof problems with that so that's not a problem except all be convinced of therobot was conscious when that robots estimate

already under unloaded down that i'm aset of soulful soccer practice cuts blaming herexperiment but that subjectivity don't think you can find conference was leading thephilosopher got stuck and that is unnecessary and position well so it was just pursue this questionof computer consciousness could certainly a lot of people speculate onthat

does a computer or have to does the makeup of the computer have tomimic the human brain the human brain in some way or is gonnabe entirely different six we what does it take for computer to start to develop whatwould what would seem to be consciousness me we have no idea for anaccident attrib r tripwire thinking that they're going to use all they have to do i mean syria on my iphone sometimes getshit like we knew there was a writing about dan fleischman canada consciousobjective extinction

and sell any dictate the differentquestion about whether or not actual gears are producing something like asubjective statements robot i think any simply not true that we can tell women bird flu loosened further is overwhelming but it's a little bit otherpeople poland portugal everybody assumeddefinition but back one-sided you know really convincing robots

something in this audience i would not be able to say or that'swhat it is not conscious moment it would look the evidence about how theconsciousness of other people can be free but that was that it can beproduced nazi it can be produced you know when we say they won't speakthat will end with her either teacher and philosophy many years ago professor willhe learned that he was all sometime in the nineteen fifties

about when computers would understandlanguage and he said all and by never i'd be the next fifteenyears and myself we really don't know what does that mean context to join fellow and i just i just thinkthat part of the problem is our best evidence for consciousness andanyone else is on subjective experience and in in essence it's it's it'stransferring the problem to how little we can get out of external observationabout intuitions about the process

and what could be and for might work andwe've is very bottom up as you say and the the questions that we're dealingwith often are okay could this system recover consciousness so they become immediately mechanistic and the error mealy in the context ofthe human brain and every challenger and they really do require that we thinkabout wealth and what state can produce consciousness we're getting much betteri think even with causal uh... efforts

to get to the state question but the ship subjectivity how that happens mechanistic lee i think is is opaque lauria what our uh... pursue this uh... in terms of animal consciousness is thatyou study uh... cognition in primates inparticular uh... what kinda comparisons can we makebetween human consciousness and uh... and nonhuman primate consciousness imean it's a big difficult issue especially when you meanabout that subject experience i can't

hang out with them without thinking onthe subject of experience mean any of you guys out there who havea pet i bet you implicitly assume that thatdog heaven keep enrich subjective experience right regis right now uh... it's it's still a puzzle to ignorethe subject of experience question asked what are they thinking which i think wehad better measures to name some traction on but but it's a real puzzle and i thinkthe more we get to know about animals in

the more fascinating things they dothey're not using natural language but they're making incredibly complicateddecisions incredibly complicated valuations they have preference is theyhave all that kind of behavior of signatures that we associate with a creature that's having subjectiveexperience uh... but again uh... that's my that'smight require which is gonna get tripped up by you really can't see g_i_ tod_n_a_ jobstreet mood swings slightly differently from cricket ballfrom a very important in our produced enough contras split

and that antoinette mls uh... you know computers can computevery complicated things than that needles we don't think that's it it is really the it is emotional connections that givesus the situation so it's an interesting psychologicalquestion what makes us feel than something it's conference besidesourselves you know that's how the psychology to itwhether that psychology consisting of science

i'm very skeptical about and and theexample of the computers you know the robot sweeping by lookingat most mo well maybe not fooling me if it doesn't go far baps you know that's why i've never quite caught up in that issue responded the classic philosophical problems people called the problem of all themines

how do you know that anybody has a mindhow do you know has a mind the moment finding is thatthis problem is cropping up practically families within that the science of of consciousness all thetime how do you know that or conscious how do we know that um... eventually the problem will come upabout computers and the negroes were come how do we know that

or coming up for months on fish in thestates and so on diagnose the presence of consciousness and these people before we find thatpeople very the very imaginative creative defiantand you know that in their techniques which people are for developing don't slow the uh... the the philosophical problem but they've

you know if we find criteria forconsciousness that seem to fit without mobile practices describingconsciousness to uh... two people and everyday life and elsewhere me there is a beginning to be up a field of uh... we'll call thepsychology of other months dependence alluding to here's funded greta real ordinary people

views prescribing consciousness to an experiment somethingof the robots is a baby has this has not shown themovie as it is that one conscious because i'm thinking to make adifference of actually yeah consciousness to deal with you know the through things like uh... pain andthe through the motions so i'm thinking teams and much more with the sophisticated stuff so if you could come up and he said hedid tell us

some of the things that you're doing thebest slow so strange about damned caps that after this parse that a little bit the and fascinating in it a relation or did just that i thinkright did so but i think this is this this pointabout is somebody conscious can can come up in ways that unit just

unimaginable until you're actually faced with certain patients at the bedside and um... in our life come into the dayton this comes upalmost all of our work but there's some cases that you know i i still go homeevery night and i think about and and i worry a lot about because in we know that

some people can peel often debasing the dive and on the butterflyis encountered an example of a someplace fullyconscious they lost their motor function silkroad all from the outsideperspective they seemed totally without cutting know if you're good examiner youcan figure out the conscious right away it's no problem this isn't the problem fact i'm setting it up and nadia noticed if i thought i'd letyou know

because you have a reliable communication channel okay so this is like a sort of a apart right answered so there's a let medespite worth kind of saying operation they won't work looking at patience so there's common vegetative state and least by definition

one amaral decisive patient andidentifies them as income or vegetative it means the same thing from abehavioral point of view there's no evidence that they'reresponding to the world there's no evidence that they're taking in sensoryinformation and are aware of it the difference between cullman vegetatedstate is a technical one that has to do with the arousal systems in the brain stemreturning to patterning apna hi soap and eyes closed changing in the eye opening and iclosure this is not related to sleep and

wake it's not associated with the kind of electriclight and easy and sleep and it's just eight part of this sort of the typical recoverypattern after combo with you know some fine print for all those in theaudience of thirty who has opened commas in there so say with particular kind and rick but uh... it's a very border vegetativestate from the next level tell recovery which is now being calledminimally conscious state

you start to see sort of on ambiguoussigns of some response the environment and in the survey grey zone betweenthese two conditions five things are just tracking of a visual image uh... adult uh... their eyes look overto a sound although those don't seem very differentthan just opening arising closing on the turns out that their creasing to recognize that eventhose small signs can make you differences and prognosis predictionsand and

this is something that's not being dealtwith very well because there's nowhere to put people like this early on andthey can't go on for weeks to recover and you know they might some of them mightrecover so there and waiting and walking around in the year and not get adequatetheir piece of you know this is sort of like a major shift as you move on and people start recover more function they might sort to respond to a coming up

and then that becomes very obvious thatsomebody is dead lift up give me a thumbs up but taking up that'snot most people can get the debts like okay that maybe that's all they can dothey're a little consciousness fits into this minimally conscious state but you know that's within our office want to call it a lot of people his conscience andthat's that's it but operationally once we can communicate with somebodywith

uh... yes or no it's reliable it lifted lifter farm upon the right for yes lifted from up on the left for no do this every time we cover the bedside that's transferring up but there arethese locked in patients through as in thediving bell yes but if i can only have control over there applique what widely dinnertimeletterhead all that the question always

just me about uh... these patients how do we knowthey're out locked impatience or just like that simply out of control but so does thisdo you anticipate why was setting all this up for the audience that's exactlyright so to two examples one example is a published case ifanybody wants to read about it was a

patient who was blocked in classicallywith the brain stem injury to my colleagues and i saw who had an unusual extension of theinjury into the auditory system dietary system is usually very wellpreserved for this bilateral goes to both sides of the brain but this person ended up with thecentral auditory i'd never shown what that meansis they could hear but they couldn't really put togethercomplex outs

and as a result cult e although it wasunrecognized for many months they've rely primarily on the breeding but anytime somebody would come and tryto test their cognitive level they we get to a point where this personto see mike they fell off and they were judged to be no myconscious or cognitively impaired wasn't into hock my colleague judges see no finallyfigured out uh... draw from the right

the questions it became clear that thepersonals fully conscious okay and just needed to have the visualrepresentation of the works a case of the in that case they're locked in theirfine but the kind of cases that we're dealingwith now that i think a really most troubling our patients whom the times are justlike a lot conviction look down for yes look to the side fornow actor communication

for two hours a day they can try to work with the d_c_i_ butthey're not good enough or that i've been up to use one reliably and understand this and then thischallenges think is a virgin c to the whole problem because i have an urgencyto treat if you want this person to come out and you need to understand support ofthe problems they're having has it that they're that it'll controller motorfunction where they're conscious state having problem and how do we make thosemeasurements and that's that's kinda

like you know that's one example there are many thiseffect is so fasting i want to come back to get the threat that we were talkingabout earlier about animal consciousness 'cause they're allkinds of fastening questions here uh... i get one i mean that the question that so many of us ask is so what is if it makes pots human whatis it about human consciousness that sets us apart from the rest of the animal world

is it something fundamentally differentabout us or is it just a matter of degree are are chimpanzees basicallylike us that sort of adolescent level glory what's your cell amateur in termsof subjective experience messages kazan great ways to measure uh... in terms ofcognition in terms of how they think we're starting to get thinks an imprinthints about what makes this different any idea that they did a search elkinsaway move might think makes us unique event language would come up as i couldbe cancer and i think language helps because you don't have language as wesaid without natural language it's hard to see express yourself and so on

my guess is that language is actually ared herring i'm kind of in the minority of animal researchers thinking the stuff by just think if it keeps if pigeons hadlanguage they just wouldn't really have anything interesting to see anyway herethere are any other item i did and to get like that dot and and and so legally folks have started tothink that really one of the things that makes us human is that kind of thingthat we're doing right now which is not a factor we're communicating withnatural language but that they were motivated to actually share what we'rethinking at all

uh... that's the power that languagedoes in its expression but it's built on a motivation that's not the words thatwe use and then after language we had it's built on this motivation actuallyshare and we're getting new hints that it seems like other animals team in ourclosest relatives chimpanzees in the numbers they don't seem to have the samekind of motivation to share what they know about the world and that critics a big difference is that meansthey're not connect communicate in the same way last they're not going to in aday and to share with you know

uh... so that's kind of wet what folks have been thinking that letme mention something that jane goodall once told me when iinterviewed her one time she said that uh... she's fascinated by the whole idea of sinking without words thinking aboutlanguage in she said that if she could spend just a few minutes inside the mind of a chimpanzee

learn more what a chimpanzee is that both of decades of research pretty standard isthat resonate with you uh... yes questioning if i can take somesort of math and science fine machine but said it might be xin incident ihavnt been fantastically interested i wouldn't think it should then the epicsomething we crazier than that you take to takeyou can't uh... summit view people always tend to end sex when they try topick something that is unconscious but the fact is that you actually lookinside behavior sometimes insects and

doing some fantastic re complicatedthings that mimic what humans do and really retrace my favorite exampleis asked for appeal will simply talks about and gets reaction to death uh... so if you live in in colonie oneof the things you have to deal with his degree in death around you and it turns out that if you preparedetc and inside an ant colony they cancel take the and out identify it take it outto an area of refuse in way and what folks calling him cemetery

uh... and this little easy mci missiontrips a while millions have concept of death you know what are they using todecide this other is unconscious about stuff turns out they have problems actuallypretty easy it's ismael chemical called a lake acid that the intimates uh... from ithaca skelton when it dies and if you put that chemical on living instead arrivingaround events in the congo grafton entered

cumplea f mistake when typing withouthim i don't have a living follow-up on that end i mean this is an ask you allto speculate on this how far family and watching keepingconsciousness goes across yes ok sorry it'll be a long time ago yeah i mean advantages today i a m wasraises a college student i with the lead on griffin who's a scholar of the animalconsciousness and he made the claim is that we don'tknow anything different about the organic matter uh... mix of non humanbrains vena nothing that makes it

different than human brain and therefore his even most parsimoniousexplanation as it goes to all other organic reaches delhi college that's one thing about in the absence of a procurement in some cases amanda there at the endstory that you tell is very interesting because it ties up with with newt talking only aboutemotional responses

here is something that looks like anemotional response and our tuition is all that's you know week we can empathize with that and then it turns out or if it's areaction to a chemical forget it something that's not evidenceof consciousness well this argument is flawed everypossible way domain you know we do feel that way andit ruins our intuition maybe what we are responding to theequivalent of a chemical it's just you know

and an emotional expression that we canempathize with it's very hard to find a place where gives out as you move across yeahwhopping didn't the natural order of maine you're talking first in some capacity sothat without that you wouldn't have consciousness any subpoena language maybe you know ourreasoning it appears to me i don't know if youneed a break

they have dissident that was among thequestions you know amended its constitution returned tothem real consensus on the other biologicalaunt animals but in fact uh... dot reference product david griffin as a false for bruised come out andfavorite in favor of pen psycho the view that everything the some elements of consciousness at the very bottom level

of the uh... of them the natural order of protection dave have everything you guys wannacountless yup how did you come up with something so i don't really have taughtdoes so i have some idea i i do have suggested that maybe they consciousnesscannot be reduced to physics that in fact consciousnessmaybe a property of nature in itself thinkin top college just maybe

we have things inside psych space andtime unmatched cannot be explained in terms of thinks of bubba foley explains in terms of things simpler than themselves ascot unscientific leadsto some agrees to itna in physics and when you step outside physics explaining things in terms of things simpler than themselves but this is a strategy to that doesn't seemto work well for consciousness level has been led tospeculate that we should take seriously

the idea that consciousness is fundamental once you do that and that the sdt twodifferent steps in the uk and the ira once you've done that also natural to speculate that it is just speculation the cost of may be present at a veryfundamental level of the physical natural order and the printout and that you know

david griffin may be correct in theconsciousness has to be found some element of consciousness is becomingfundamental papa both rodrico with the fact that you know what what is it may to some people because theyproto consciousness just center that the other defense i can send us asuburb of her to uh... because then we don't understand the south we don'tunderstand the nature of matter regardless of consciousness when it comes a conscious of our india

or in the dark and uh... africa lostreally speculate for a living we discussed pragmatic okelleher he had a very you're shaking your head no i don't want to spoil the fun huh linearity group green that's what we hav fire intuitions aboutconsciousness unwed when we stop in and talk about consciousness of the momrather than about their intuitions about

consciousness there's literally no limitto what we could all of you because we actually don't know all we hv orion our intuitions aboutconsciousness the legitimacy of that question is something that i would like toquestion i thought it is you know if we don'tknow what it is this all we have our intuitions ultimately what we can do and study thepsychology of the situation

and that is a very different thing thanstudying the apology of consciousness itself we don't know where consciousness aspresident i said i don't know that consciousness is present in these longbiological systems we also don't know that is not presentno we don't we simply don't have that i'd be a bit high maintenance queen kono that is it's the only thing that we haveis originally from the world the presence of contrition religion when you do not understand thequestion i think i don't understand what

we don't know if i think what we need todo is build the theory of consciousness that explains the datathat we know about between which is she wondered thatexplains the regeneration animals stated that i was back to the questionall concise explain conscious as i mean the idea that's on the table here itseems to me is maybe there are some dimensions of consciousness that arebeyond the explanatory power assign font it is and it is a legitimate hypothesisto entertain

but based on a very interesting one dante's traffic because it doesn't do any workfor us them and i i think it's fair to stutter i would say which is bracket that possibility and work is if we could discover enough information about how certain thingswork mechanistic lee digging intuition that's precise about how things that we consider conscious happenher in the human brain

uh... that the question of where isconscious and starts a runoff file a genetic spectrum his art one because youknow without a mechanism attached to what we already are trying to solveabout when were conscious or not valued is not a medieval questioning me and idon't think it jellyfish is conscious at least in a way that makes any contactordoes any work for me tell me understand the problem of assigning consciousnessas a possibility mechanistic lead for physical system which is a brain usuallywhen i'm thinking about it if it is true victory could be fooledinto thinking that that the robot this controversial fullyexpress and most from mobile

that really change in the pictureentirely and good all that is left i think in the psychology because of asking that onto logicalquestion is the robot really contras undreamed not sure that there is anymore that we can do beside the fact that yes we think it is both and i feel it isas i say and i think that day addicts studying in figuring out our and towishes about what is conscious is an important question for you is what is they're fantastically ron i mean i thinkeverything we know about intuition suggest they're fantastically on however

the governor a lot of our behavior in alot of our judgments about things right means of right now in in politics withquestions about whether corporations should have rights and i bet hardly intuitions aboutwhether those corporations have subjective experiences probably tellsomething about you know what we should be doing tonightthere's a big question about let me be the reception here should we be eatingthings that had me inept certain forms of certain kinds of animals and i betour intuitions about whether we should be doing that

at governing fact that one and i thinkthat have come to states that i think understanding what ourintuitions are telling us uses canoe for any really meaningful intimidating daytona come back to youbecause having do you agree the rest of the panel are some of theanalysts are saying that basically some of these questions are not relevantbecause science has no handle on some of the larger philosophicalquestions about conscious but i'm not saying that nutrition

development agent but study electrolyteslesbian this is the crazy but i do think that it is a me front is a meaningfulquestion whether jellyfish conscious wet weather goes further and there is a fact of the matter about which may be but not my position to but now maybe another

however i think you know there's goingto be a waiter it may be ways eventually togethers scientific methods if indirect land-useis what i think we have to do stop of the cases of cartoons as we knowabout the case but we have data roughly at the human condition builder theory an explorer free theory that connects cautions that for example

throughout uh... to bring prices i thinkof this is try to abstract way that we have somefundamental principles of connect brain process too cautious that could set up to themost successful theory that explains the data we have consciousness is generated by certainkinds of your complex versus certain kinds of reasoning on certain kinds of complex powerstructures and so on

then will be in a position to say to extend these two other cases in sable that's the theory that works extendedfamily cases where the structure of the present we should expect the consciousness of isnot present it could turn up on the other hand of the theory ofconsciousness of the best turns out that high cost ofsome basic properties for example of and information processing in the brainand then what what to do is to extend it to other cases that may be speculativebecause we've had measure questions

directly in the system to protect thatmy theory gives us reason to think that there is no doubt that might helpto explain computer consciousness that i mean if if consciousness ultimately isabout information uh... you know a computer might have a rooted in the game integratedinformation system as the human brain does welcoming could be and that's what he did nothing for theconflict that tuition it could be the jury so it could isolate

and area in the brain that is associated wisconsin's that is actodine especulated and then if we found animals that don't have that area of the brainwe would have some evenly we would have some reason to say theydon't have conclusive but that would really conflict intuitions associated with the robot wascertainly doesn't have those areas of the brain and can't fool us into thecancellous can lead us into

give generate the same intuitions but it has consciousness i don't i don't really see a map the way outlook looks i have it does promise a robot i thinkthere's an analogy is depicted it isn't typically the case that most of theintuitions but consciousness just come from observing other people they comefrom this and respected aspect of examine natural language and and havingsubjective or at least taking the idea that we as abit of experience and then acting

according and sharing it as you wouldsay so i could truly program robot to do all of you about man there is nono you could but it now it was a robot then that might be the only reason whyyou wouldn't attribute consciousness to it and it wouldn't be batteries unless we have a mechanistic accountableconsciousness burrows from and we had instantiatedthat in the robot today to have a v_ taken your own replacing one of the timeher and that effort

functionally isomorphic to the originaluh... neurons and not be enough to bring themof a leftist nih go to the well done we speculate that the law school buswhether you know it has to be made of meat and uh... i don't see any reason wouldwould have to be made and sell this if you found silicone substitutes

but i see no reason and the functioning would remain thesame and the emotionality expressions would remain the same pet transfers theproblem sort of the way david is talking about the because it is they say itcould be a permission or could be some other aspect of complex matter that the brain is an is an example ofsharing that property it's essential and once we understand that certainthings become transparent about

how this kind of thing happens at thatbut i think it's more likely to be the information than something than the biology for to highlight what like plasmaphysics like something about decried as a matter of some kind of late you know the thing that happens with certain kinds of things and hope if it is the inflammation then that doesn't fit with ourintuitions

which are driven primarily by emotion so our attributions of consciousness ofdriven by the motions when we think about consciousness we think about installation process this is there is really a deep disconnect between those two but let me ask you about research project that is now going onwhat some people have called the connect up this

extremely ambitious project two the neural circuitry of the brand it's it's you know sort of almost beyond comprehension tothink about it i mean they're nearly a hundred billion neurons in the brain trillions of synopsis was to saytheoretically somewhere down the road this would be tapped how close are we to understandingconsciousness pele

and a lot of people project info i feel like if i answer of each and oneof their ideas so i don't really did but i think one of my colleagues parthanature of the rubrics articles from harbor is trying to develop a um...estes digital atlas of the detailed connections of a mouse since my mother one of us projects in that space and he points out

that many of the cells their connections are so manifold acrossthe bridge when you actually do one of these uh... uh... studies that they'redoing retake ultra micah thompson take theentire brain int reset every possible hip that's gonna require theoretical models and laws about how systems that havethis architecture mighty possibly work so and other were closer but that is theright direction money

adair leasing absolutely fascinatingproject backpack at lunch today with someone's working on the science projectof the brain activity mats yeah tried funding to really get the whole uh... you know the wholebrain for medical bhi aa a fly and then uh... your true fees if the central and then maybe fifty years a

human brain through that kind of uh...imaging techniques of her threat once complete developed in i do think that want to goup that kind of trolling neuroscienceobviously going to be revolutionized than yours aspects of the message about toll for the tools they have beenvery limited and religion technique comes along like a tomorrowright and suddenly most besides co sponsorswill dissolve a tree

what gives us access to having access for example to every bitof neural firings and the brand every uh... everyconnection is going up suddenly put us in a position where the mechanisms stuff to be transparent to us but it's still amechanism saluda doesn't and what we end up having is probably a situation where wean extraordinarily sophisticated science

of the correlations usually the other manipulate the brandsunseemly certain things and see how kat what will even be able to uncomfortable to oneself a great actors psychologistpull me over an article back in the nineteen fifties call them the complete officer prosthesis emphasizes the just exactly this theseverity of the photos from you have a picture of your brain there you uh... ul yiv the experiment three ofyou are in this uh... this caveat the

completed about your brain in front ofyou could experiment on their own brain and see how yourexperience changes to this unprincipled we have uh... the stroke of objective data about the brain troop of subject a bit aboutconsciousness you're seeing them one police be able to have stressed out the relevant kinds of principles

the objective here to the subject of the word that means wecross the my brain cap out of the delivered it ever goes away but we we boil it down to the simplest possiblewith a big deal from we're going to be not because como i think it's my own view is the best we can get is correlational but we can get

that her in more systematic devil in front of thelots of course poliana physics ultimately if you have fundamental principles of a certainsense correlational what the law of gravity we get a simple principlegenerates i think uh... this in physics told your phone calls a civil war so simple can ride on thefront of a t-shirt so you know maybe there's there's agolfer cap on what we have laws of

consciousness connecting physicalpresence unconsciousness so simple but on the front of a t-shirt maybe thatwouldn't remove them and bring down according to the principal i think wewould call the peak of theory do you need consciousness to have a sense of self possums we can't clean measure consciousness is chiquitaasked that and sense of self

consensus about is also very different so that his band that out long historyof work in the field of animal psychology trying to measure a sense ofself uh... and in a lot of that his checkingplaced in some creativity on the part of researchers but not great methods ultimately despite thefact that a lot of creativity wasn't quite so an answer to that workingassumption is that if if the animal command recognize itself in in the earththan it has a sense of self again in fact even till this day date

researchers testing new animals with newmir as a new kind of our contact for a training see they recognize themself and and you know that that pattern seemsto be that you know the the standard been creatures who cmos might like thatseemed to do it pretty well see chimpanzees during this an elephant'sdoing it uh... and other critters who are smallerand don't look a lot i just don't seem to do it but when if you thought of yoursense of self anger set of preferences in your future goals or whatever thathad to reduce that to here did you notice he had some splotch on your facewhen you walked by the bathroom near you

might feel that i was missing somethinghe does in general said the man look i think you're right now is that thatmeasured yet might tell us something about the can recognize that softeningtheir address not capturing we really wanted to capture don't miss the bigpuzzle for books or animal cognition raise a week we have these good ideas ofthe kind of things that we do that feel like it didn't in capturing thosevery things in a m on optimism after languages really tricky i think it's time to go to the audiencehere loved you know there are too

or roving mikes and that way if you have questions whenyou raise your hand i will call a new please don't talk until you have mikebecause we're recording this but usko here let's go writer very much appreciate heated dependents giving definition consciousness fifteen i think it's very hard to defineconsciousness in terms of anything more

basic that consciousness just as it's veryhard to find time and space in terms of anything more basic time and space for their fees we cansave which of these i think are helpful as they uh... a phrase future of thomas nagelaffection who wrote this article what is it liketo be a bat you might say that the system isconscious when there is something it's like to be that system with some thingslike to be me

the somethings like to be ruined if you know the pass i can still saythere's nothing i select b dot com what by the mental state like seeingwill be conscious if there's something it's like to be in that state for something it'slike for me to uh... see right now but this nothing it's like me to maybe dosome competition and my cerebellum i don't know that the definition exactlybut it was the way of getting a grip on what i'm talking about maniacal

gap so no and uh... credits to williamjames i think most neurologists omg use some variation of william jamesdefinition of consciousness which is that consciousness is awareness of theself and or the environment okay and and and most unusual weatherwhere you know i act which it was just a logical as david said naa circulated rightly pointed out byuh... and got away with it and james untilthen the and then i connect and painful oscartaking your definition of satisfying i'm sure we not going to the hospital

weapon i'm going to question whether there is asatisfactory performance because of i think ball reno is whatintuitions we have about what his consciousness and if that's all we know defining consciousness of the fit exists independently of our intuition is is an exercise that i have no ideahow to conduct i mean i know that you know very intelligent people deal with this and spend their livesdoing it and it is a necklace i think

you have never understood that's that that's good enough the frustration ofthe expressing my favorite letters consciousness that annoying time between naps cap explains what we can go with that well let's go over here we wait for britain to bite on the tourists in difference betweenuh... hinds and degrees of consciousness

you know that the reserve evolution andvariations itself worldwide place we think that capabilities are theonly thing that that very consciousness and not liking the examples that would give him gravity in electricity that uh... then they're very differentfundamentally devil forces eat different kinds

uh... consciousness investments ratherthan from the state of the loop response and then i think once we get agood metrics for subjective experience oncewe know how to measure it cost versus other things i can't hot button agin that we're gonnafind differences in kind of subjective experience for example again i don't have a great way tomeasure consciousness in the necessary dot we don't have a good way to measureconsciousness in a jellyfish

but maddening something that it feelslike for me to feel embarrassed if that's the that i could experiencethat there's no similar thing that it's like for jellyfish to field and asked and so my guess is we're gonna find allkinds of gradations once we actually have a good way to look um... but the problem is we keep comingup with is that we don't have a great way to look alessandro we back there

i was wondering uh... using a scientific mappings requires asking some objectivity pakistani subjectively when in fact discovering subjectivity consciousness

requires new scientific method doing it in his science fair i think they could be objective factsabout subjectivity gotti's object if at the time comcastbubbly objective fact your consciousness or yoga can be fighting up maybe a coupleof shop but you are a your conscience but they don't refer to this problem inscience

all the time kind of short of theexternal world exists we have to make certainassumptions together off the ground for example perception is some kind of guy toreality of a novel and the matrix subway doing intensive do we need todecide to the freemen meeting to scientific paradigm here too the consciousness problem but if there was this much we have totake the data

we have to take subject it first-persontaken seriously in conference that is the date we havewhat we believe or conscience because we've experienced it and that they have their ability momentsin history of science when the stuff is going to do an awful about that's already sent aletter from the third person point of view i think artist intosomething we know about in the first person point of view andscience of consciousness has triggered some of that

observations from the first person pointof view estate going there others should be used in thinking you know nobody debating burst these days first-person accounts all data pen there's no problem the question is youknow what do those they took telus and convey

lead us to a solution and that's that is quite clear let's go with the gentleman in the middle i'm a christian would be listen to me fine let me online chins unseemly

signals assigned story like you suggested products concerts jellyfish is conscious wanted me to do that his purpose view maybe that's thinking back way built to scaleback in january how to look at

llanview's in reverse also one thing about it not an we mentioned spoke was on on yourquestion she and i think you know there's a there's never go out withhaitian to understand this um... there's a humanitarian issue behind at least what what the raha just wanna know on thatmeasurement because of somebody's conscious and

they can express themselves they can't communicate with their familymembers and we could figure out using the science of consciousness away to enhance their capacity to dothat or to give some of that back by doing something intelligent that that's it's an inherent good at least for my party and that's kind ofone of the motivations well isn't there at profound ethical question which are alluding toyour i mean

someone is in a horrible car crash the doctor at the the the people on thescene say sorry this person is brain dead now do we pull the plug i can make that problem harder harder and harder and he keeps getting hotter and you are stuck with near ignorance situations where without that model

you know that you're making mistakes i can tell you we also making somemistakes and try to give the best information youcan deal with the families make decisions within the range ofuncertainty anderson's visit of attendance of a number uncertainty thisis this is becoming more and more uncertain as the sciences evolving not less so isn't that the implication there that we should bemuch more reticent

but that's a good laugh well but the flip side of the says that you also don't want to commit people to indefinite their communities and individuals patients who are not going to recover you need to give the you know if you have to give her oror reasonable assessment and you have to give eighty ever cancer

if you're not working with a model most of what is done and consciousness science forthe reasons that we've heard in medicine his testicle making some reason vegetative state they had this kind of injury there are a lot of other measurementsuh... that you can do often if they're in his own where it's notcertain sometimes things are simple

and sometimes brings that brain death isdeath it's not diagnosis it's not doesn't have a pridenow there's a diagnosis mata prognosis person is dead if their brand but if there the minimally conscious state head edamame after a very severe injury things become harder now you might be able to statisticallyestimate at their level of function might not be

it expires e but then it's an issue a value an issueof what no human uh... contect they're going to have with their family andoften the answer those completely on them and then there's a range of what isacceptable there's a range of what individuals will see as a meaningful human contact with somebody they love

and i've known for their whole life and this happens and alzheimer's diseaseall the time right i mean this is something everybody's really worth an elderly person who slowly slursslipping down out of contact if you had some way to bring them back so they could talk to theirgrandchildren for a year that might be a very important thing right would be and may not save their life in a mightnot mean that they would use the bada

contact at some point in the future isthe kind of thing that you know besides a consciousness will make more wal lite predictable and allow us to talk in amore intelligently with people about what can he can happen and what weshould do it should we do this is something you want to do that those covers stations are nevergoing to be easy that they could be better informed let's go wave back and that the thebackroom transfer wasn't there

its curse given nobody in the panelsrepresenting them bergeron reductions consciousness consciousness explained away pet pet term there's a program called nobody's really address which is thereason we bring to study the brain reciprocal apology here reserve locked into in the holdings

biologist summarizing well a reprieve basically refuse to believe mari simply process because of the world's before mefalling off which is set it consciousness purely fire process children's here exactly instead

it's not something why should be what's the technet steakhouse credible lots of other there well it was directed at a productionrefinement which which are not that time but ithink of the brain can study the brain microscopemicroscopes and sunny microscopes and so on the other start-up

wool in principle of systems directing studyin them up directing the scientific enquiring up themselves the question of poses that you know it'sreally how do you know any of this is uh... you know how you know that which is a basic right how do you knowthe brain is there a project how do they

not in the matrix no listen pick up the me produced in your mind bhaiya cut even evil demon was before you and i think ifyou're a scientist who's doing experiments on into people's brains anda friend for the first thing i think it's life student body of the same kind ofargument elsewhere in sciences you've basically just have to issue

that uh... differences of perception ora guide to reality without doing that the cops out doing a cut something fasti think in the same in the first part of the new repairable apparent paradoxes but the best response is simply to walkaway pathways yourself right when i interviewed standards andasked him so how big a quest how big a mystery is consciousness he said it's it's been a mystery there just lotsapostles

uh... the next question uh... let's comeup in the front row here so far most of discussion has been with the more scientists once behind not houston which replies thano would you consider hasn't wider once made a contribution crystallize

consciousness is in that sample online king mrs uh... list accent two-legged scenes in there breakdown of the park and worldwide maybe not but many people concerned u as of right now may have

contributed sister the you you match it one of the onesthat i wouldn't put out there it is jane goodall or anything good writers that tell us somethingabout consciousness i just fantastically good at during the game of what it wouldbe like to be off uh... and in in my worldly knowing whatit's like to be a chimpanzee hopes you hang out with a lot of chimpanzees andnot just a good writer i was i think all all the time she spent trying to getinside their minus fantastically good to

meet you if you read some of her piece is aimedat a popular audience to try to describe what it's like to be david gray beard or one of her fevertend to get it a fantastic look at that that my read isthat it's it's it's about writers being good at getting inside the heads ofother individuals and that's not necessarily good scientificunderstanding of consciousness are figuring out the problem that we've beenout here talking about it's a kind of person who has a good senate system oneintuitions about just popping inside

somebody's head in describing backreaders like what's it like some of the first but i'm really interested in frompolitical methods representing one of the questions the challenges forthe sciences tools to accurately describe therepresent states of consciousness but for now terribly got up we need a better pharmacological methodwhen you look at them

frist is a monster from well it is characterizing it states ofconsciousness in them frost gory detail that's one of thethings we can look to uh... to rise to the question is can you takethat makes us up other obliterated food since all those i would mention have alreadybegun boosters oliver sacks would be the one who can most current with

and again you know the visualizers those people speak to your intuitions i mean they do something that feelsright so it is really pretty interesting enough for me that's the way i thoughtabout many philosophical questions of the since it was a trial the psychology of our philosophicalintuitions is fascinating to me then the psychology of

what so you know why some accounts ofconsciousness of pure appealing and others don't as a psychological problem isfascinating even if i really don't think the problemfor me so little things that vote the psychological can be good scientific question and that was coming to my mind immediatelyis when you asked about consciousness himself

my answer is consciousness first because i've been reading helen kellerwho's an incredibly amazing writer but she's written in the end of her lifefernando earlier book that she wrote called teacher about it and they see solomon she talksabout real feeling about who she was or whatshe was before solvent bought her language and it's amazing because

she does not by experts has not reviewedthe self identity to the conscious being that she was checks the labels it phantom and she describes it in detail as aentity that being picking up pushed around and reacting and usually violently and usually withlimit drives and detail which is now a priority items it's not sought the focusof her book it's mostly about how

solomon taught her and what it meant toher but it is that section for me as a very interesting and the reading and thinking aboutmeasurements in thing about this journal issue but that that's that's and that'sthat's one you want your yes definitely william james's is one of my heroes whohas been mentioned here and i just i a m astonished that how contemporary hestill is reacted a book like brightestreligious experience and i have a

particular interest in questions about science and religion andthat he's just i think he still asking questions that most people don't even talk about still eye-to-eye there let's go over here uh... enough of one of the things that you guys uh...talked about was how when people our vision with emotions that there is youcan't just and also making complicated calculations

and my when i walk work today i was probably not a word and the stepsthat i was taking within pakistan but they were very kind very complicatedcalculations so why would seeing abortions or doing things the calculation the necessary disassembly so someone i mean today doingcalculations part and abar intuition ek read your is conscious

i think i mean doing calculations in away that makes you seem like us that as somebody who studies in animalsi can watch people's intuitions turned on him and watch people wanting tooshould be subjected states animals that do things like we do nested take decades right anything youknow one of the reasons you see inspecting to death in taking thatindividuals at the cemetery that's kind of like what we do and i think thatinstantly tripped up by mechanisms to fail we must be like a uh... i'd addingdenny's right that uh... acting in emotional ways like we do is especiallyto trip up these mechanisms and measure

any of you guys have seen this that thatthat company a key ahead a commercial about buying new light bulbs awhile back buddies district exile xc asi g_i_ apple oven all the lamp thatwas about to get thrown out and they had very emotional music inatlanta sort of hunched over and it looks at the union and you mentioned you know it gets passed and the rain andstanding in everything you can help inundate the punch line forthe next year in a sales person comes out is is this just the layout because ihave feelings she'll tell you i think i

thank you uh... wendy l beloit so we have cadetsexhibiting these kinds of things that look like that so some i think is thething that shoots up the party that creature has objected experience themost is like us million that uses dole feeling guilty you know that's a powerful intuition youknow there is a there is a behavior that's makes us empathize with guilt and dog skimp abusive behavior

are rewarded for paradise already very short of time i let's goover to this idea that the gentleman in the middle e no matter what real believe our consciousness somehowwe all believe that we are on some level and we all believe there's so much thatwe'll decide to take much time on friday becomes disband

so my question is from the r_t_c_involved so the question is one of the advantages econ phds harvey wife did give us and i think this questioned it even morecomplicated when we start to realize they and many of the decisions we make that fieldthe most conscious uh... aren't necessarily the ones that had the bestdecisions ideally can speak to this when i can but i think the puzzle gets biggerbecause if you think of the stuff that

you do that's not conscious like not getting hit on the way here in thosekinds of things from a natural selection perspective those could be the ones that hubert in doing a lot of the hard workis staying alive and getting meats and so on expected to another evolutionary answer to that questionright now because we did have a theory of conscience would be in much better shite one way to put the basic

question of consciousness and why didn'tevolution just producer races on these communities of east physical systems ofwhat i'm doing other stuff without consciousness that all ofinfidelity consciousness is that sir you might think there's reasons to thinkthat attacked has some function but every time someone proposed it looks like boeing you can do aboutthe principal about cops alexander right up near the frontthrough the second round is consciousness the sick

green biological conscience he seemed even suggested was accent continue what and and organizations that the valve utilityinbound tourism partner as their lives i work for a consciousness of movementfor the first the supreme biologically but you know i mean it's pre-qualified intrigued bysubject experience for the jellyfish how

much i think that we can see and a question for you each of you before we wrap up here uh... if you could answer one question aboutconsciousness of the big question that preoccupies me if there is one whatwould it be what's what's that puts the question you most want answer uh... date lindstrom i'd just one

but religious tenets and i guess thequestion is explain conscious what will be inexplanation of consciousness bubble of theory of consciousness looklike maybe less cheating because the question is thebiggest encompass houses to all the others were false if that's what we're sayinganything and i want to have his answers ended up i think that's treatment programs demand

dance and this is science in these all factsand they're important facts and and they were grown unmarried relationsof the make for a better world you know we need more of us and i would i would say i think my answer is thesecond but it's at it it would be that if if we could havea mechanistic account of are subjective experience arises inthe brain

probably answers david said lots andlots of questions and then because work with that kaposi's and that's possible i'd like toservice uh... since i'm not sure it's hardlypossible i'm gonna go with something out switches i would like us to have a full accountof all of our intuitions about what what is conscious what's not consciousand how all of that works and permission processing level killing that's gonna doa good job of making world a better phase that decisions a better place andso on

and based on what we know about kind ofscience in the methods we have that worked pretty well that's something thatmight be more likely to happen in our lifetime we are that's i think that's loose isn't feasible program threatening to to understand ourintuitions because they're pretty simple there not until meeku cokie room for meif you know that's why we can't use that as a basis for science vadu explain a lot about empathy

and so if we understood that there is alot of socially motion that we would be on the stanley at the same we could go on that we are out of timethank you so much david chalmers daniel kind of invoice and